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Author Topic: Early puppyForth discussions & ForthOS  (Read 13063 times)
DennisLeeWilson
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« on: 2010-March-03 07:58:25 PM »

WOW! I have some nice replies to the Challenge from the Win32Forth Yahoo discussion group ( http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/win32forth/ ) with interesting thoughts on the project. One of the replies pointed to a public domain ForthOS, authored by Andy Valencia that burns to a CDROM and boots from it.  Copies of the replies are below.

Re: The puppyForth Challenge



--- In win32forth@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Lee Wilson" <dennisleewilson@...>
wrote:
>
> An alternative to consider would be using colorForth, i.e. using the
> puppyForth project as an excuse for converting many of the Win32Forth
> elements into colorForth. This opens up the possibility of eventually
> developing a PC hardware replacement as well as the software
> replacement.

That is an interesting part. PCs have grown so much in power and yet so little
in performance. The software not only does not take advantage of the amazing
improvements in raw processing power, it swamps it so much that the end result
gets slower and slower each year.

An efficient operating system would be capable of running on very minimal
hardware (comparatively speaking) such as is found in PDAs. I want to design an
open source GPS receiver and I expect it will run a Forth based OS. It will be
interesting to see if you can get any momentum behind this.

Rick   gnuarm.2006

Re: The puppyForth Challenge



--- In win32forth@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Lee Wilson" <dennisleewilson@...>
wrote:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/puppyForth-Challenge
> <http://tinyurl.com/puppyForth-Challenge>
>
> The puppyForth Challenge
> A project to create an open source, bootable CD for PC users to migrate
> away from Windows.
> by Dennis Lee Wilson
> 2010-Feb-28
> Brief introduction:
>
> Back in the last quarter of the 20th Century, I was a Forth Interest
> Group (fig) Chapter co-ordinator in Phoenix, Arizona. In June, 1982, I
> created and donated the Z80 version of fig-Forth. (For reasons unknown,
> FIG no longer includes that version in their listings so I intend to
> make it available on my website
> <http://dennisleewilson.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php#12> to
> interested individuals.) After developing the Z80 fig-Forth, I added a
> full screen editor for disk and memory and offered it for sale thru
> FIG's Forth Dimensions (see full page ad on page 2 and New Product
> Announcement on page 22 on this pdf...:
> http://www.forth.org/fd/FD-V04N6.pdf
> <http://www.forth.org/fd/FD-V04N6.pdf> )
>
>
>
> Why the "puppy" name?
>
> Man's best friend: friendly, obedient, loyal, protective guardian, fun
> to play with...everything that Windows is not. Windows has been aptly
> called a virus masquerading as an operating system. Get yourself a
> puppy.
>
> I have long wanted to replace my dependency on Windows with a Forth
> based system, but I got hooked on using some of the huge amount of
> programs available for Windows, programs such as Excel, Outlook, Word,
> (or their Open Office equivalents) FoxPro data base, DVD burners, video
> & audio players/recorders, internet browsers (FireFox), Photoshop.

That makes two of us! I thought of the MAC but I couldn't get hardware and
software for it as easy as for Windoze.

>
> Recently I encountered an inspiring project from the Linux community
> called Puppy Linux. I acknowledge them and that inspiration by naming
> this project/challenge after their puppy.
>

It looks and sounds awesome! Thanks for introducing me to it. I Will play with
it for a while to get the feel of it.

>
> The challenge:
>
>
  • <http://desktoplinux.com/articles/AT6545828265.html> This article
> describes Puppy Linux and its features--ALL of which are desirable for
> puppyForth ...: http://desktoplinux.com/articles/AT6545828265.html
> <http://desktoplinux.com/articles/AT6545828265.html>
>

> puppyForth: A project to create a open source, bootable disk
> (CD/DVD/USB) for PC users to migrate away from Windows. PuppyForth would
> be developed and maintained by volunteer effort, much like Win32Forth
> and Puppy Linux. And like Puppy Linux, it would present the user with
> Windows-like screens, icons and syntax. See screen samples at
> http://desktoplinux.com/articles/AT6545828265.html
> <http://desktoplinux.com/articles/AT6545828265.html> (scroll down to
> MiPup2 heading).
>
> I have created a discussion board for this project (
> http://tinyurl.com/puppyForth <http://tinyurl.com/puppyForth> ) but I
> hope to merge this project with the excellent work I have seen on the
> Win32Forth forum on Yahoo. The expertise and knowledge of Windows
> internals is impressive. I hope to persuade some of you to think of
> developing and/or running Windows type applications on puppyForth
> instead of running Forth on Windows. I make my puppyForth forum
> available only in the event that the puppy project might be seen as a
> conflict with discussion on Win32Forth.
>
> An alternative to consider would be using colorForth, i.e. using the
> puppyForth project as an excuse for converting many of the Win32Forth
> elements into colorForth. This opens up the possibility of eventually
> developing a PC hardware replacement as well as the software
> replacement.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/puppyForth <http://tinyurl.com/puppyForth>
>
> Best regards,
> Dennis Lee Wilson
>
>

Sounds interesting. Not sure how much input I can add though, since my
"expertise and knowledge" is quite small.


Ezra   "ezraboyce"

Re: The puppyForth Challenge

Thanks Rick and Ezra for the kind words.

The first step that I see for puppyFORTH is a file that can be burned to
a CD, making it bootable, loading FORTH into memory and jumping into
FORTH. I did something similar "back in the day" when I burned my Z80
fig-FORTH into an EPROM that would, when booted, copy itself into memory
and then jump into the program and display ok on the screen.

Question: Is there a nice FORTH (fig?) for the Intel 386 chip that could
be used for a starter? Could Win32Forth be used with small changes? (I
haven't drilled into it far enough yet to answer that). What is required
to make a CD bootable? (Linux people seem to know).

The first version would not need any supporting programs or file
managers--just be careful not to write to disks that you want Windows to
use. Some people might even prefer a raw Forth system <grin>.

Any takers? Any other thoughts?

Best regards,
Dennis Wilson

--- In win32forth@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Lee Wilson"
<dennisleewilson@...> wrote:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/puppyForth-Challenge
> <http://tinyurl.com/puppyForth-Challenge>
>
> The puppyForth Challenge
> A project to create an open source, bootable CD for PC users to
migrate
> away from Windows.
> by Dennis Lee Wilson
> 2010-Feb-28
[ snip ]

RE: [win32forth] Re: The puppyForth Challenge

Dennis,

Just go out and find an older Mac, with Open Firmware on a Power PC. That
gives you the best start you can get. If you want something more current,
get yourself a OLPC. It also boots with Open Firmware, which gets you the
Forth basics. Then, you just need to write drivers for all the user
interface devices. There is the rub, keeping up with all the various
devices is a real pain.

I worked in Open Firmware at Apple, until they killed it. There, we had a
team of 7 full time people keeping up with the changes for just Apple
products. I was also at Forth, Inc. when the decision was made to switch
from a DOS based system to Windows and I was using their products when they
switched to DOS from the BIOS based systems. The driver work takes manpower
and when the vendors only supply C drivers, if they supply anything at all,
you end up with a huge conversion and maintenance job.

Now, my experience is almost a decade old, so you might have an easier time
today. You should just be aware that the idea is not new, and there were
valid reasons that these concepts have not survived today.

DaR   "Dennis Ruffer"

RE: [win32forth] Re: The puppyForth Challenge

Look at this: http://www.firmworks.com/ofw-linux-frame.htm
or: http://www.firmworks.com/LinuxPres1.htm
Seems to be that our old friends Mitch Bradley and Michael Perry are saddling
the horse from the other side. They are offering easy porting Linux to other
platforms with OpenBoot from Firmworks.
Maybe they have a solution already.
DB   Dirk Bruehl

Re: [win32forth] Re: The puppyForth Challenge-- REID Reply
Hi

I'm Andrew Reid -------- a long tine ago I used Forth in computers where it was
the operating system, interpreter, compiler, and assembler on an old CP/M
machine using the Z80. I built a small video digitizer and controller for a
small robot back in the 80's.

In those days tight code and fast execution was the order of the day.


I have a renewed interest in Forth in the Data Aquisition context.

I am personally out of touch with Coal Face Programing in Forth.


I have interests in Temperature aquisition using 1 wired devices such as the
Maxmin DS18B20.

Puppyforth supporting embeded programs in Forth would be most interesting along
with portable applications within the windows environment.

I would welcome contact with any Forth programmers using the DS18B20.

Kind Regards

Andrew.    "Andrew Reid (Imaging Associates)"

Re: The puppyForth Challenge

I've always liked the simple setup of F83 Lexan/Perry Forth; all you'd
really need is a very simple kernel for your system - that is saved as a
bootable program.

It gets control on startup and compiles the rest of the system from CD;
with the speed systems are running these days recompiling the extensions
is fairly painless. Could also have option of creating a control file
on floppy or other media - to customize what the kernel loads and
compiles. And of course, a way to save an image of everything to floppy
or other media.

I never could understand everything that was going on with the F83
metacompiling. Having a system show you what's going on as it's loading
all it's extensions would make people curious and get them looking into
the source code on CD.

Setting up a large file somewhere on system and using it for a block
buffers setup would be nice too - being able to quickly page thru blocks
of codes helps people see things better. To use text files for source
is slow and you end up having to print everything out so you can easily
refer to various things.

Win32forth has made incredible changes to the old style of Forth as FIG
presented it. It's a mature language now but is also complex enough
that people have to make a very serious commitment to learning
everything that it's doing in order to use it for big tasks.

We need something simple, that's relatively unbreakable yet can be used
for non-trivial stuff and gives everyone a chance to look under the hood
and see all the gory details if they want.

I'm still hesitant to use ColorForth, it's really neat and powerful but
I'm just not comfortable with it. Too much of a change from the old
days I guess.

The old ways are probably better for capturing the interests of new
people; after they've had a taste of the raw power of a Forth system
and started banging on the hardware a bit they'll be ready for the more
sophisticated implementations.

Been on the list for years but never felt need to post anything till
now. I suppose part of the reason is I'm going to try and get something
setup for use under the hercules emulator - will use CMS at first but
might eventually ride the emulated IBM 370 bareback with just CP for
support and troubleshooting the debris after all the program crashes.

Take care
Wes Sale    Wesley Sale


« Last Edit: 2010-July-08 01:22:34 PM by DennisLeeWilson » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: 2010-March-03 08:01:43 PM »

The first reply here contains the information about the public domain ForthOS, authored by Andy Valencia that burns to a CDROM and boots from it.

Re: [win32forth] Re: The puppyForth Challenge

<snip>
Question: Is there a nice FORTH (fig?) for the Intel 386 chip that could
be used for a starter? Could Win32Forth be used with small changes? (I
haven't drilled into it far enough yet to answer that). What is required
to make a CD bootable? (Linux people seem to know).
</snip>

Try here: http://www.forthos.org/

You burn it to CD and boot from it. It works, and looks quite complete. I booted
it in a VMWare virtual machine and it worked fine.

It's not graphical, it's 'DOSsy' - but that's fine, the GUI would be a layer on
top of ForthOS...

Regards

Mark     mark wills

Re: [win32forth] Re: The puppyForth Challenge

Hi there,

Since a long time I am thinking about a FOS (Forth Operating System) for PCs,
too.

More then ten years I worked with RSC-Forth, which is a real FOS. I used it on
computer systems which I developed, manufactured and sold by myself. This time
was over with the advent of the Internet and finally with the Millennium Windows
Edition.

Parallel I worked with UR/Forth for graphic projects and Laxen-Perry-Forth as
Terminal Emulators on PCs, and later I switched to Win32Forth because it was
easier to handle, and I can do graphics with it. But still, none of these PC
systems are FOS.

Every now and then googling for a Forth Operating System, I recently found
http://www.forthos.org/ and I was eager to use it. Looking at their
installation page http://www.forthos.org/install.html I stumbled over this
sentence:


ForthOS operates more or less directly upon your disk device, and thus it can
wipe away any or all of your disk contents. Make a backup before you get
started, and back up as often as needed based on knowing that ForthOS provides
primitives which can destroy your disk contents without warning.

That stopped me from proceeding.

Yesterday I got a bare DELL Optiplex GX150 for 10$ at eBay (+35$ freight, it's
real heavy), see
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260557427339&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123
- there are still some available - to use it with Puppy Linux.

To get it work I have to get a PS/2 keyboard, that needs some days, because I am
living at the country side and my car doesn't move because of ice on the ground.

Would it be possible to run ForthOS on such a computer which has no harddisk?
If so, it would be the right engine to start tests with a ForthOS. I like to
evaluate it and I like to add visualFORTH to ForthOS.

Seems to be we get a new Movement. With the foreseeable decline of Windows new
opportunities are opening.

Best Regards,
Dirk Bruehl

Re: The puppyForth Challenge

YEEE HAAA!! Many thanks, Mark!!! I just downloaded the file, burned a
CD, changed my BIOS to look for a CD first and it booted the ForthOS
instantly!! WOW!! Better than the "good ole days"!!

The first step for a puppyFORTH is doable and real!! And according to
the docs I read, there is a file system in there somewhere also. This
makes a really good start!

Thanks again. I encourage anyone interested in the puppyFORTH project to
check this one out.

Best regards,
Dennis     "Dennis Lee Wilson"

Re: [win32forth] Re: The puppyForth Challenge

I don't think you could run ForthOS with no disk at all. Years ago I ran
Forth on North Stars with hard drives. It could access any part of the
disk by track and sector. It was fast too. I don't remember ever having
to wait for the computer like I do today. In fact to find a task like a
search that took more than a few seconds was an achievement.
I have an old Tosh so I'll stick FOS in there first. I wonder how it
accesses graphics, network, sound etc. And GUIs. I think we have a long
way to go to catch up with Linux.
David

________________________________________________________
David N. Sands, ST Robotics International
Website: http://strobotics.com
robotics within reach

AW: [win32forth] Re: The puppyForth Challenge

The CD image is compressed. Which program did you take to decompress and
which program did you use to burn the CD? As far as I know not every CD-burner
does burn this kind of files properly.
Thanks in advance,
Dirk    Dirk Bruehl

I used WinZip to decompress the image (clicking on the icon brought it
up), but the ForthOS Installation mentions gzip at www.gzip.org

When I clicked on the uncompressed file ( forthos.iso ), my system
brought up Nero for burning the CD.

Nero - Nero - free downloads - latest updates and trial versions are available at
www.nero.com/enu/support-downloads.html


I hope that helps.

Dennis

I read about the file system in ForthOS ( http://www.forthos.org/fs.html )
and it is NOT compatible with the Windows file system. For puppyFORTH,
it would appear that coding such as Win32Forth uses would be needed.

Dennis

--- In win32forth@yahoogroups.com, Dirk Bruehl <dirk_bruehl@...> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Every now and then googling for a Forth Operating System, I
recently found http://www.forthos.org/ and I was eager to use
it. Looking at their installation page
http://www.forthos.org/install.html I stumbled over this sentence:
>
>
> ForthOS operates more or less directly upon your disk device, and thus
it can wipe away any or all of your disk contents. Make a backup before
you get started, and back up as often as needed based on knowing that
ForthOS provides primitives which can destroy your disk contents without
warning.
>
> That stopped me from proceeding.

Indeed. Do not attempt to write to a PC disk using ForthOS, unless that
disk is dedicated to Forth blocks. Thanks for the ebay link to the
inexpensive boxes (link below). They might make good test-bed systems
for puppyFORTH experiments.


>
> Yesterday I got a bare DELL Optiplex GX150 for 10$ at eBay (+35$
freight, it's real heavy), see
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260557427339&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123
 - there are still some available - to use
it with Puppy Linux. To get it work I have to get a PS/2 keyboard, that
needs some days, because I am living at the country side and my car
doesn't move because of ice on the ground.
>
> Would it be possible to run ForthOS on such a computer which has no
harddisk?

It looks like the boxes still have USB ports that could be used for data
storage, maybe even a boot device.... Some don't seem to have CD readers.


> If so, it would be the right engine to start tests with a ForthOS. I
like to evaluate it and I like to add visualFORTH to ForthOS.
>
> Seems to be we get a new Movement. With the foreseeable decline of
Windows new opportunities are opening.
>
> Best Regards,
> Dirk Bruehl
>
I am excited and pleased with the comments that this discussion has elicited.

Best regards,
Dennis


Re: The puppyForth Challenge

Hi Dennis,

I see you are online.
My first try did lead me to Dr.Dos:
I used 7zip to decompress and with Nero I burned a bootable disk.
To be sure nothing serious happens, I removed the HDD, no problem.
My Bios is because of using Puppy Linux on boot-order: first USB, second CD,
third HDD. So it started from CD, showing me a lot of stuff from Dr.DOS, ending
up showing drive a: - I guess it was a virtual drive a: Changing directory to D:
showed forthos.iso on D,
so my idea was that using 7zip was not a good one.

Next step: I downloaded WinZip, and WinZip really extracted 4 files and a
Boot-folder with Grub inside.

Before I make a second try (I only have a few CD's left) I like to ask you what
kind of CD I shall burn: Bootable CD or Data CD?

Thanks a lot in advance,

Dirk

AW: [win32forth] Re: The puppyForth Challenge

Dennis,
I guess you are much better in using PCs than I am.
Despite having only a few CDs left over, I burned the extracted files to a data
CD, and it does not boot from it. When I started with Puppy Linux, I have been
told to use a very special procedure to get a bootable CD, so I got a readymade
Puppy-CD for a dollar from eBay, and everything went well.

That was another reason I hesitated to start with Forth-OS.

I stop now at this point waiting for your special advice how to burn the
Forth-OS-CD to get a bootable Forth-OS done properly.

This email I am writing using Puppy-Linux on my laptop with HDD removed, booted
from USB-Flash. The Forth-OS-Data-CD I burned with Nero is still inside.

The CD shows the following files:
BOOT.CAT  FORTHOS1  FORTHOS2  forthos.iso  SRCFS100 and the folder
BOOT with the folder GRUB inside containing MENU.LST and STAGE2_E
I hope this was done right using WinZip.

I really appreciate your help to get started. Starting never was easy for me.

Thanks!
Dirk

Hmmm. From the instructions at http://www.forthos.org/install.html
I downloaded the "compressed CD image" from
http://www.forthos.org/distro/current/forthos.iso.gz
and it only had ONE file on it..: forthos.iso
When I clicked on that file, it brought up Nero. I was never asked
bootable or data, but bootable is definitely what I wanted (and got).

When I booted from the CD, I was given a choice of two ForthOS systems.
I tried each and both came up. I haven't yet done much because I didn't
want to corrupt files on the disk. I just tried out a few words that I
know are not disk related, things like "words" and ".s". I put a few
numbers on the stack and displayed them, then I typed "bye" and started
reading about the file system.

I hope that is of some help to you.

Dennis

Re: The puppyForth Challenge

Thanks for giving me the joy of discovery. I guess you all are computer
scientists with a PhD, while I am a simple electrical engineer who only attended
one lesson in FORTRAN in 1968 and one one day HP course in BASIC for their in
circuit testers in 1973, and attended some microprocessor presentations from
Avnet and others.
My experience with computer scientists - in Germany the professional name is
"Informatiker" - is that they know everything, and so many things are so natural
to them that they don't even think to mention it. That's why I started
visualFORTH, to give a GUI tool to all these people who do not have a computer
scientists connection to the morphogenetic field.

After I could convince ForthOS to react to keyboard inputs - and it works really
nice, the first thing I did was Leo Brodie's Star-Test, and despite not knowing
ASCII it worked fine - I had the idea to look at http://www.forthos.org/ again,
and guess what, there the solution was - I should have read this introduction
page more carefully.
There it says:
"Multiple virtual screens with screen flipping using function keys"

There we go!
But as usual, I had to find out by myself. That's why I am writing "Thanks for
giving me the joy of discovery".
After all your confirmation I felt affirmed that Forth should run with this
ForthOS CD, because Grub did run, so the CD should work.
When again nothing worked after the start screen

Booting 'ForthOS'
root=(cd)
Filesystem type is iso9600, using whole disk
kernel c/ForthOS1
[Multiboot-kludge, load adddr = 0x100000, text-and-date = 0x51280, bss=0x0,
entry = 0x100044]

showed up I typed in "help", because being in Grub help gave me a list of
commands (the only one I got to work was "reboot").
Again nothing happened. Hitting Enter several times didn't help either.

Then I had the idea to hit F1 for help, because most systems use F1 for help -
and I did it despite I got this warning yesterday: using WindowsXP, you should
never touch F1 - F1 opens the door to intruders, see
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9164038/Microsoft_Don_t_press_F1_ke\
y_in_Windows_XP?taxonomyName=Spam%2C+Malware+and+Vulnerabilities&taxonomyId=85

And suddenly it worked. Words run fine, my test - mentioned above, too.
Impressive. A ForthOS with no Microsoft-stuff on my computer (I guess so),
because I am very cautious and had my HDD removed.

For me the next step is to get an empty HDD (I guess it does not need any
formatting) and look what I can do with ForthOS. Starting back over to
F83-times.

The first thing I would do is to add a word to detect if the HDD is used by
another file system, and then give a warning not to use it or deny to use it. I
omitted the idea to run the block file part under a FAT or something like that,
because that would spoil the speed and beauty.

Thanks again for giving me the opportunity to go behind the curtain!

Let's do some ForthOS!
Dirk

P.S.: I must have accidentally touched F2 when hitting F1 was intended. That
made the difference! Hitting F1 again switched back to the part where nothing
happened. I forgot to check the other function keys, I am now back on XP to
write this email. Everything has its time.

"Dirk"
« Last Edit: 2010-March-04 04:57:40 PM by DennisLeeWilson » Logged

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Creator of Atlas Shrugged Celebration Day & Artemis Zuna Trading Post
Signatory: Covenant of Unanimous Consent
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Creator of this site
Administrator
Forum/Blog Owner
*****
Posts: 1331


Existence exists & Man's mind can know it.


WWW Email
« Reply #2 on: 2010-March-04 09:47:02 AM »

Quote
The first step that I see for puppyFORTH is a file that can be burned to
a CD, making it bootable, loading FORTH into memory and jumping into
FORTH. I did something similar "back in the day" when I burned my Z80
fig-FORTH into an EPROM that would, when booted, copy itself into memory
and then jump into the program and display ok on the screen.

Question: Is there a nice FORTH (fig?) for the Intel 386 chip that could
be used for a starter? Could Win32Forth be used with small changes? (I
haven't drilled into it far enough yet to answer that). What is required
to make a CD bootable? (Linux people seem to know).

The first version would not need any supporting programs or file
managers--just be careful not to write to disks that you want Windows to
use. Some people might even prefer a raw Forth system <grin>.

As "proof of concept", ForthOS by Andy Valencia satisfies the "first step" of a CDROM bootable Forth that will run on an Intel 386 based PC. Reading thru the document on ForthOS Filesystem at http://www.forthos.org/fs.html it is readily apparent that it is not adequate for a puppyFORTH system (although it would be excellent, as is, for a dedicated "classic" Forth box).

The next logical step, as I see it, consists of either of two possibilities, for which most code already exists (i.e. no new inventions):

  • a. Merge (recode) the (really nice) Win32Forth file management system into ForthOS
  • b. Rework Win32Forth into a CDROM bootable format like ForthOS

I find that last possibility REALLY exciting because I have seen so much good graphical and other Windows-like features already existent in Win32Forth.

Any other ideas on "next" step?

Best regards,
Dennis
« Last Edit: 2010-March-04 11:03:54 AM by DennisLeeWilson » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: 2012-April-23 12:33:55 PM »

This is my first post here - and I am hoping to contribute as much as possible ---

First off - I have been enthusiastic about the potential of colorforth - which I don't
think have been realized, yet.  Second - I am very enthusiastic about a different kind of
operating system --- one that " people " in general can use - that should be dependable
and reliable and simple as possible.

I think that colorforth - or extensions base on that kernel could be that system - and
I also think that it is realizable in the near term --- ( days, mos, or Huh? ) anway - I'm
bad with estimates.

 Roll Eyes

Follows: my note to Dennis - to get registered here.....
which he suggested I post:

thanks everyone:

Dear Sir,

I have read some of your post - and also I am currently on your web site /  http://dennisleewilson.com/simplemachinesforum
which I am unable to register on.

Basically,  I am a long time forth - " enthusiast " --- since about 1981 >
have not been really " focused " in that way - for some time.

For the last 20 years or so I have been back and " forth " with unix/linux - windows.
During the early 90's worked on " cross " platform - client server development,
and then sort of moved into " internet " work.

But I have reached a point in my career where I am a bit tired of the IT hype -
and would like to evolve beyond it --- php/oracle/windows/java/osx/andoid/-unix/etc.
Or in other words --- my trust/confidence level in ibm,oracle,google,apple,microsoft,(zend?) -
is like 4-5 on a scale of 10 ----

Meaning --- that there is a buy in to the corp. concept of what makes computers
work - and I am beginning to think that all of that is not helpful in the grand scheme
of things and that there should be a better way.  Like in essence why do we have
these operating systems - that require - so much labor intensive activity - on so
many levels - when in fact - most of it is " repetitious " on a variety of levels, and often
involves " syntactical " issues - that are mostly like gravy on meat.

But specifically - over the last week I ran into trouble with an install of a windows framework application -
--- should just be an exe - but requires the .net run time --- entity framework.  It all took me by
surprise - and made me feel quite " dumb ".  Unfortunately, I'm getting a bit old for that.

It seems like an interface - between a forth kernel and either java or .net framework or perl - should
be a reasonable goal --- ( and may be also what puppy forth ) is indented to be --- not
quite sure.  If the kernel is " robust " enough - the framework - should allow for
database access, or some variety of communication protocols should be like a choose from
the menu - where is your comfort level ..... something like that.  At a certain level you
quickly have enough and - for a lot of people that could just be a browser.

Also, at this point in time, I think that the forth community as a whole - is broad enough to
support some kind of venture of this type --- and I also think that, once you have something
going - that makes sense - to a descent variety of folks - then - it should evolve on it's
own.  ( I could go on .... )

The bottom line is I'd like to be involved somewhat --- or at least be able to register on your
forum if nothing else.

my programming background ( 1977-2012 ) - so you know ---

cobol/dl1/forth/c/c++/perl/java/vb-asp/c#-asp.net/ - a bit of php and assembler
- and sybase/sql-server/oracle/mysql/informics/db2,


forgot smalltalk --

So thanks,,,,,

also note some ramblings here - kind of related ==> http://bestcodingpracticeunow.blogspot.com

and just want to mention some stuff - you should also be aware of

FMS -- forth meets small talk

mpe -- http://www.mpeforth.com/

and all the international groups --- england,russia,germany


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« Reply #4 on: 2012-April-23 01:30:08 PM »

Hello Marc, glad to have you here.

You mentioned "It seems like an interface - between a forth kernel and either java or .net framework or perl - should
be a reasonable goal..." and I agree.

I have also discovered from experience that it is interesting and fun to replicate/recode the functionality in Forth itself instead of transferring control to an outside program/function. The wonderful advantage is the ability to custom tailor or improve on the functionality once it is replicated in Forth, something that cannot be done by transferring control to another program.

When I coded my full screen editor in figForth I was amazed and pleased at the ease with which I could add features from other editors--and even add features that I wanted that did not exist in other editors.

Best regards,
Dennis

« Last Edit: 2012-April-23 01:43:09 PM by DennisLeeWilson » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: 2012-April-24 10:05:42 AM »

I'm a bit chatty - thanks for your note - -I looked at your notes - on the z80 editor - actually the code :

I just can't breeze through z80 assembler --- but ...

Anyway,  I looked at a few more links and joined the win32 group on yahoo ....
I actually - re-created a yahoo account so I could get there ....
but --- my thoughts on puppy forth - are that I'd like for the project to see - " the light of day " ...
meaning at some point it's get " rolled out " to at least one " happy " user --- notice my
excessive use of quotes ...

your comment on --- no quotes --- writing it in forth ---
interesting and important observation --- something ----

however, to put it simplely --- a release need a function set ---
and when you make it to 80% of that function set --- generally it
get's released because - most everyone is not worried about the
last 20% (or just too tired ) ... just a generalization ---

so - the system has to do --

only - a, b, c ... and sometimes d

my thoughts are that ---- perl, or java or win32/.net or whatever - has
considerable functionality --- and that using those existing function sets
is okay if you can do it reliably --- sometimes you should re-invent the
wheel - and sometimes it's just round, that's all....

depending on the goals -

ideally - I would like to generate the function set of perl in forth ---
the opposite has been " done/tried " ---the former would could be
actually,maybe, should be just interface to the perl - rather than rewriting it ...
most of perl is just interface ( imho )

when you get into the win32/.net world you are getting a lot of
" stuff " that sometimes means something and sometimes not -
( i remain somewhat befuddled -- most of the time -- because
   they enjoy changing the {{{{ rules }}}} )
depending on what microsoft says === so that can be a problem.
same with java --- but then you have oracle calling the
shots ... and google / what's google doing Huh??

etc, etc,

so let me just say this --- what functionality to you anticipate or feel
is vital to this project /?Huh/

if you have this list --- in your head or written down ---- let me know .....


it could be a small list --- like - run a browser or run a text editor ---
not sure ....


Also, you can't just re-invent linux --- that's because ---- you end
up with linux.

Also as I mentioned before ---- the forth meets smalltalk is an interesting
concept as well ---

My --- thoughts on function set - it that it's really a high level bios ---
that allows you to add functionality base on rquirements --- so that the
function set itself is --- somewhat flexible ----

Actually - I may be talking about vm ( virtual machine ) ----

another wheel ....

( I'm babbling sorry )

thanks again,,,,,  Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: 2012-May-03 01:17:01 PM »

Quote
--- what functionality to you anticipate or feel
is vital to this project /?Huh/

if you have this list --- in your head or written down ---- let me know .....

it could be a small list --- like - run a browser or run a text editor ---
not sure ....


 http://tinyurl.com/puppyForth-Challenge

The puppyForth Challenge
A project to create an open source, bootable CD for PC users to migrate away from Windows.
by Dennis Lee Wilson
2010-Feb-28


Quote
Also, you can't just re-invent linux --- that's because ---- you end
up with linux.

There is NO attempt to re-invent linux nor to use linux in any manner EXCEPT to ACKNOWLEDGE that PuppyLinux is an inspiration and proof that "an open source, bootable CD for PC users to migrate away from Windows" *IS* possible.
« Last Edit: 2012-May-03 01:19:15 PM by DennisLeeWilson » Logged

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